this is the place that uh made nerd cool the most popular password in the united states is password one two three those are some of my previous fans who on earth would actually fall for that i'm sensitive information has been given to the wrong hands the security repo welcome back to another episode of the security repo i'm here with lynn noe who is well amongst other things a hacker a human cyborg a trans human other there's other acronyms i can call you but lynn welcome thanks so much for doing this um a really pleasure to have you here yeah i'm happy to be here man thank you for having me so to to start off maybe you can give a little bit of a of a brief rundown about uh little information about you what you've been working on and uh you know some of the things that make you uh uniquely you okay i think we only have an hour for this so i'll try and keep it short uh at a high level uh yeah my name is len no i am a technical evangelist biohacker and a white hat for cyberark software i've been currently in the it field for going on 30 years i specialize in the attacker's mindset i'm also probably most well known for being one of the thought leaders around the transhuman community i currently have close i have eight current microchips that have been implanted inside my body that i use for the purposes of offensive security and i'm working on actually getting a fully integrated copy of linux implanted into my leg so that's that's the next big one that's that's that's quite incredible so let's talk talk about talk to me about that trans human movement this is probably something that people aren't aware of particularly in maybe in the cyber field you know is this a a movement that's happening is this something that defenders should be concerned about worried about focused about you know and and what is kind of the transhuman movement absolutely okay the term transhuman was actually coined by a gentleman in the uk named julian huxley way back uh and essentially at a high level the trans human movement is a group of individuals who want to move the human body and the capabilities of the human body beyond what they were born into uh personally i am a subset of the trans human community because i'm actually also like i said a white hat so the question you asked was is this something that cyber security professionals need to be aware of i absolutely you know when you look at someone who like myself who has the ability as a human being to directly interface to your techno stack that is going to open holes and vulnerabilities that you may not be aware of uh if you haven't seen it yet i would definitely recommend checking out the presentation that i did two years ago at rsa called biohacker the invisible threat uh in that presentation i showed three different ways that through the use of subdermal microchips the hackers can potentially compromise both physical security as well as mobile security and iot and the problem with that is especially if we're depending on where you live there are regulations around personal medical information so even if you were discovered you know the ability for any type of authority to be able to try and compel you to be able to disclose what's going on becomes a very gray area so if the there's one of me that's enough for that for the fact that i think it professionals need to take this kind of thing seriously well i mean people are manufacturing these chips so there must be more than more than one of you i'm definitely people probably thinking on this line and um okay i i'm gonna break in right there i'm gonna break in right there because i i'm actually where i'm coming to you today from is actually at the b-sides newcastle event and i'm actually sitting at a table with the uh guys from k-sec you know and if you're not familiar with them they're one of the biggest implant distributors in europe so we sat down and actually had a conversation about this yesterday and between dangerous things in the united states which is the biggest uh microchip distributor and k-sec we've actually kind of have a rough number of how many trans humans there may be out there uh because i know the i'm all from dangerous things and we're we got a pretty modest estimate that there's probably between 400 to 600 000 of us globally at this time just between these two manufacturers 400 to 600 000 you said yes there have been 400 to 600 000 implants sold now does that mean that they actually made their way into a person i don't know but those are the numbers as far as the sales so that's why we said we're giving it a kind of a large you know uh plus or minus value there but yeah it could potentially be between 400 to 600 000 trans humans walking the globe at this time that's crazy that's crazy and just before i forget i do want to reiterate that that talk at rsa was was fantastic i remember i remember that talk i made a i made a video on that talk um so yeah i remember don't want to sound like too much of a fanboy here but uh no but i'll tell you what you you're back just a kudos to you because i remember when i saw you know the video that you put up and your your opening made me laugh for at least five minutes you know and if you haven't seen list saw that that go check it out it was just funny oh yeah okay great yeah i was a bit worried about like you know putting that in as like this is gonna be too too edgy but we'll we'll uh i'm glad i did i'm glad i did uh but let's talk about some of the capabilities of these implants 400 to 600 000 000 so okay so this is a significant threat right this is a just a significant potential potential yeah right because i mean these aren't always designed for malicious purposes i'm sure there's lots of legitimate use cases for these absolutely going going in i don't want to skip over that but let's talk about some of the new furious use cases what what are some of the things that you can do as a result of these implants that you know a normal uh a normal human kind of wouldn't be able to do a normal black hat okay well a lot the big issues when it comes to the implant is the obfuscation possibilities you know one of my favorite attacks that i did personally was the compromising of physical security based on the implant you know we have my fair classics pyramids and dala hid one two and three procs so if you have a uh something like a prox market you know the ability to scrape a an id card has been around for almost two decades and the difference between what i'm doing and the breaches in the past is the fact that it's written down to the subdermal implant even if you catch me and this is the the big difference even if you're able to catch me all i have to do is say you know hey the door was open you know i didn't realize this was a server room i just thought it was a bunch of computers i thought it was cool you know and the when you look at it from a legal perspective you know the worst thing that you're going to be able to do to me is trespass me and if you take the fact that i've already been in there you know depending on when you catch me we have so many different things that i could do once i've actually gained access to your your infrastructure we have whid cactuses bad usbs i could you know if i'm in there there's the potential that i could move that into a larger attack and the fact is if i don't have say a cloned card or i don't have a prox mark in my hand from a legal perspective i all i have to do is play dumb you know and unless you can prove that i was there to try and do some type of nefarious act the worst thing you're going to be able to do is have the authorities say you know what they don't want you back here on this property but by that point the damage could already be done right so there's yeah there's a total lack of evidence in your hand i mean i saw a demonstration of kevin miknick cloning her id card and he had a big briefcase with him they had a you know a cloner in the briefcase you know like okay you could definitely do it it was it was a neat little trick but i mean you've got nothing you you've just got these implants in your hand that are able to kind of scrape information from from their security card and absolutely and that's the exact point you know if you use your example with kevin mitnick you know it's the same difference of having lock picks on you when you're caught you know in some place that you don't it's it's tools that could be referenced as thieves tools or you know there's some type of evidence as to how you got there and how you managed to be somewhere you're not supposed to be when it comes to me it's completely you know not there and based on where you're located there are so many privacy laws when it comes to our personal medical that i'm going to speak for the united states because that's where i'm from you know they're not allowed to ask me you know because we have a law called hipaa so you they cannot ask me about anything that would be considered medical so i'm actually playing on that gray area to the point where i know even if they just see like you know the bulge from a microchip in my hand they're not going to be able to really go down the rabbit hole and force me to disclose what it is yeah that's really interesting and as particularly because this is such a new uh a new field i mean like my brain wouldn't immediately go to oh he must have implants in his hand either so you know we have this all these legal legal backups here that you can that you can lean on but i mean someone has to kind of make that jump in the frame yeah you have to make the you have to make the leap from you know what most people would expect where you know he stole a badge he you know rode in behind somebody else and i'm coming at it from a completely different direction that most people aren't even thinking about and it's my hope that through you know broadcasts and publications like yours that you know this is this is coming and i mean i i actually did a the closing keynote here at b-sides yesterday and if you'd like i'll send you a copy of the deck and everything but it was called resistance is futile we're already born you know and it just goes into the fact that we are so dependent on technology as a species as the human being and we're trying to even integrate more of that technology you know when you look at the fact that we have you know now implantable stem pain receivers pacemakers have been around forever but what a lot of people may not be familiar with ucla actually is working with spinal implants that are actually restoring motility to paralyzed people and that actually has a controller and a battery pack that gets implanted inside the body as well you know we're looking at you know things like uh synchron which is tesla's main competitor and the brain computer interfaces you know these they're already in human trials you know every one of these embedded systems has firmware it has security issues you know these are things that are going to need to be updated as we move down the line and nobody's talking about these kinds of vulnerabilities one of the things that i like to ask is we can everybody here kind of knows what the devastation that can be caused from ransomware well what if it was we were ransoming a pacemaker you know then it's a real ransom yeah yeah yeah that's that's totally true and you know you you mentioned on these brain interfaces like euro lincoln and the other one uh that you mentioned but yeah this is you know every time i kind of see something about about this movement it freaks me out because um you know of their potential impact i i mean it it it takes on a whole new meaning when you do you know like a uh we could do a takeover of that if you could do a man-in-the-middle attack on someone with a brain interface then well there's a lot you could do but right and the truth is we are so addicted to this technology you know people are you know like i said the name of my talk was you know resistance is futile we're already borg and it's not because of the fact that we're going to be taken over by a race of cyborgs that are going to try and you know assimilate us we're going to go willingly towards the technology because we're addicted and we're just waiting for our next fix yeah totally don't uh totally too hey you know like now let's let's talk about this maybe a good a good c way how did you find out about this how did you get involved in the trans human kind of movement um you know that what got you into it what got you wanting to get your necks fixed um to be honest it for me it was more just a natural evolution of what i was already doing um if you've never seen a picture of me you can go ahead and google me i am covered in tattoos from my neck to my feet or from um i do flesh hook suspensions as a hobby i'm very into that modern primitive cyberpunk kind of lifestyle and i've been aware of the grinder community for years things like the firefly implants and you know the peg legs but my issue is always been if i'm gonna do something like this it needs to be done in a safe way you know i have nothing but you know mad props and respect for you know the grinders that you know started the movement but i'm just not that kind of guy you know we're talking about people that we're taking just off the shelf by it at radio shack kind of components mixing up some two-part epoxy covering the chip and then manually do it yourself surgically implanting it and you know hats off to these guys you know for being those brave you know forerunners in this field but i'm married and have five kids so for me it was more a matter of when are we gonna start seeing something that's commercially available that you know has some kind of a background and a company behind it that i can get something that has been tested or bioencapsulation to make sure that i'm not going to suffer any kind of heavy metal poisoning or anything from a breach of the encapsulation so it's something that i've been watching for a very very long time uh are you familiar with the firefly no i'm not i'm not adult you want to talk about crazy that's one that i would recommend do some googling on uh the firefly implant actually is an implant that most a lot of people got put in the tops of their hands and it actually uses radioactive material and it actually glows material okay all right we're getting into a hardcore area now yeah to the you know and like i said you know i i want to be that that humid cross between the human and the machine but i don't want to die from radiation poisoning and i don't want to die from heavy metal poisoning and you know that actually you know brings me to a very good point in especially if we're going to be discussing the trans-human movement like i said before i have nothing but respect for the the pioneers but you know we're not at that stage anymore and i'm very cautious about people doing do-it-yourself kind of implants because you know i'll put it this way one of my the last implants i got was actually the wallet more chip which is the credit card so i can do tap to pay and if you get one of these implants and you talk to the wallet more company you know they don't call us you know testers or whatnot they call us ambassadors and the reason i bring this out is because ambassador sounds a hell of a lot nicer than guinea pig you know everything i'm anything in the transhuman world for the most part is not sanctioned by any type of medical authority so be aware of this don't do this stuff yourself find yourself a reputable you know body modification parlor and somebody that knows how to implant these things safely you know there has been people who have actually died as a result of trying to do these type of modifications to themselves from sepsis and different infections i'm all for moving the biohacker and the transhuman forward because i think it's going to become a part of our daily lives but at the same time i want people to understand that they should be doing this safely and responsive yeah yeah a good point because you know i was wondering about the dangers of this i'm sure that you know now you know we've with the distributors you mentioned before that and you talked about the um the coating i i forget the technical term you use but you know the the coating around the chips to make sure it's safe for the but is there is a risk now in in doing and and doing this is there or there's always risk you know anytime you're dealing with any type of surgery whether it's medically necessitated or elective anytime you're going into your body there's a potential risk um i think that it's a lot safer than it was in the beginning of the movement because they're using actual medical grade bio encapsulation and it's not just a couple of you know two-part epoxy or super cool but you know you can and you can get serious medical complications from doing this and that's why i said go to a professional body modification parlor because these are people that have done piercings and they understand the human physiology uh for example like if you're doing an injectable style implant you you want to go between the dermal skin and the muscle tissue if you go too deep with one of these things and you actually get it into the muscle it can cause infection if you put it in the wrong place they can migrate uh i'm actually having an issue with some migration in one of my implants right now i have a bio glass that i put in the top of my hand that you know originally was up by the the knuckle right before the fingers begin and it's now migrated about halfway down my hand right you know so these are things that can happen i mean i've heard stories of where somebody got an implant in their hand that wound up in their foot you know so if you don't do these right number one it's not gonna you're not gonna get the proper reads it could prov it could wind up causing some other potential health issues down the road so i'm all for you know people becoming part of the movement i'm just saying do it the right way so that way you can actually enjoy your implant yeah yeah no i think totally i mean it totally makes sense and and you guys are at the forefront right not everything's er everything's figured out but as you said you you're you're not you're not at the very beginning you're not injecting radioactive material into your fingertips [Laughter] but but going back to some of the security implications you mentioned before that you're looking to get a full linux system put into your into your into your link i think you know a peg leg i think you've referred to this before but i i know a little bit that you're designing something yourself um can you talk a little bit about about about what you're doing in that area sure uh the peg leg was actually a grassroots movement uh based off of the raspberry pi zero w and the original version was meant to act as a logless file transfer so if i wanted to give you access to some type of file and i didn't want any record of the fact that i gave it to you uh essentially what it does is it acts as like an intermediary drop spot and what you would do is you would implant it in your leg upper thigh typically right behind your where your pants pocket would be uh and the reason for that is there's no internal power i've said that numerous times in terms of current commercial grade implants there's no internal power and that's why when it comes to the nfc and the rfid those are very easy to use because they get their power from the receiver in regards to the peg leg what we do is we put an indirect power receiver like like a rapid charge uh wireless charger receiver on it and what you would do is you would take a battery pack that has the ability to do wireless charging and you would slip that into your pocket it would energize the receiver coil and actually power up the raspberry pi in your leg um i'm building my own pcb because the raspberry pi zero and the raspberry pi zero w-2 one of the things that it doesn't have that i want is dual wi-fi to be able to do things like wi-fi pumpkins de-auth attacks you know wi-fi type stuff uh so that's the difference between the one that i'm building and the current version of what would be considered the peg leg uh if the website's still up there you can go check it out it's pegleg.org that's that's crazy and we you know we're going back to some of these you know original conversations that we had about you know with your stealing someone's you know id card or something there's no evidence but now you can do a wi-fi attack you can walk into a building conduct a wi-fi attack you don't need uh you know you don't have to have a router or equipment in your it's all adjustable in your body in my body and the other thing that the other thing that we can do when it comes to the peg leg is you know i'm sure you're as you're well aware there are certain businesses governmental agencies where the idea of bringing technology inside is forbidden you know i i've been to the department of justice when i was earlier on in my career here at cyberark and the first thing they do is they put you through a metal detector they give you a locker you know no laptop no foot no cell phones no nothing you know and these are the types of places where things like my peg leg which i'm actually thinking about giving it a different name maybe i'll call it a hack leg i don't know but uh but you know these are the kind of instances where things like that would become very dangerous from an espionage type of situation uh the other thing that that would actually do is like like i said i'm just currently sitting here at the b-sides conference in the new in newcastle uk so if i'm just at a conference or an airport or anywhere there's a large gathering of individuals i can slip that battery pack in my pocket i could have conversations with people that are standing around me while all this at the same time i'm doing low energy bluetooth sweeps autopilons with metasploit you know basically unattended type scripted attacks could be going on just while we're sitting here in it and all i have to do is wait until i go home later because i can connect all these back to my c2 server that's actually sitting out in aws wow yeah there's a lot of different areas i mean i mean you've got a computer in your leg you can do anything that you can do exactly with a computer with wi-fi connectivity yeah so i mean the possibilities and i think espionage is immediately where my brain kind of goes something where you know you need to be extremely discreet um you need equipment and you need to be able to get into places and i think that you we can combine all these things that we've been talking about today with these ids you know grabbing someone's id cloning it coming back getting into the building having a computer in there conducting some sweeping attacks you know when you put exact things together it's not kind of like uh it's not a drive-by situation no it's not it's not a spray and prey this you could be a essentially a one-man hacker collective and walk into a building and with a little social engineering you you know the possibilities are pretty endless yeah yeah all right i'm slightly terrified now but let's let's let's move let's think forward here um you know and get organizations thinking about this as a possible attack attack you know threat what how how how can we kind of defend against some of these are there recommendations are they common things oh yeah yeah it's things that we should have already been doing you know i mean realistically this is this is my standard answer to this question you know we when we talk about our data you know the concepts of multi-factor authentication in front of privilege and information is pretty it's standard practice you know we all know about it it's something we're familiar with but we don't do the same thing for for our physical security i mean realistically how many times do you just have a badge reader you scan your badge it unlocks the door you open the door and you walk through yeah you know there are we we need to do the same kind of multi-factor that we do for our privileged data for our privilege to access you know for example i i've worked like i said i've been doing it now for almost 30 years you know i remember you know early on in my career when you went into your server room it was like the you know those old door handles that had like the push buttons you know and you like and then you would turn this you know not much security to those you know but by the end of it you know i remember you know to get into the server room first you had to badge and then there was a keypad that you had to input a secondary code in you know so basically we multi-factored access into the those secure locations and the answer is very simple defense in depth and a layered security approach you know there's not going to be any one silver bullet that's going to be able to stop somebody with augmentations or some type of integrated capability what we can do is layer enough security just like we do around data that you're never going to be able to stop me from scraping that id what you can do is keep me from the secondary validation that only you know so that would be the first answer and as much as this is going to freak you out to tell you this i'm going to tell you anyway um i don't know if this is going to be a situation where life imitates art or art imitates life but you're familiar with uh drug sniffing dogs right you know the drug canines well there's a new kind of canine that's been offered as a resource for the police in the military and there's actually technology sniffing dogs uh i believe the component name and i'm probably gonna butcher this is triphenylphosphate or something like that uh and essentially these are not used in the same fashion that you would use a drug dog where they're used to make an arrest they're going to discover something and you're arrested these particular canines are actually used in the post-arrest investigation stage they're using predominantly with pedophilia human trafficking things where people are going to store data on hard drives and after you've been arrested and the search warrants come out they'll use these particular dogs to go through your house to try and find any type of data storage or hidden technology that you may have your you know backed up your your information uh i actually found out that where i live back in in the us i i live in just outside of austin texas and i found out that the dallas police department actually has acquired one of these canines so yeah so as funny as it was i reached out to the dallas police department and after several emails back and forth explaining what a transhuman is and the fact that yes i'm for real and no i'm not some kind of you know guy that's just messing with you you know i was able to provide them and the funny thing is i think i actually gave them your uh one of your your original video that you did on my uh rsa talk as part of my cv that i sent them to validate uh they finally got the point that yeah this is something that's real and they've really been very open with you know discussions they've cl they were the ones that told me the compound and they've actually invited me up to the dallas police department where i'm gonna get introduced to remy the technology dog and we're gonna see if remy has the the ability to sniff out the implants in my hands and trigger and if you think about back to the terminator movies you know wherever the rebels were they would always have dogs right out in front because the dogs could smell the machines so i'm really kind of looking forward it's just been a matter of scheduling with all of my travel but i am going to get up to dallas and we're going to let remy take a shot at me and if she's able to detect those you know we may actually have a way to detect trans humans in the future i don't know but it's going to be a hell of a lot of fun figuring it out yeah and that is that is really really interesting when you're talking about that now i know because i know you get this question a lot um you know but is it how do you get through airports it does these things come up and you know it does these things that is the number that is one of the the top two questions that i get number one is how do you walk through airports and the other one is typically uh are you real i i've actually had people ask me are you a real person yeah um but the ques the answer to the question is how do i walk through airports is it's very simple i put one with the left foot in front of the right foot and then i repeat you know you know but these things can't can't detect what's in your no so we don't have you know i mean we have an x-ray but that's a you know that's a very involved process to try and figure out quickly if someone's if someone has these implants in them so well if i may for just a minute uh let's talk about the airport for just one second typically we have two different types of security when it comes to air travel you have a magnetometer which is just a little thing that you walk through and then we have the full body x-ray scans so don't quote me on the amount but i i'm gonna date myself before the tsa in the united states i went in when len was a very very young guy he actually worked for the airport as a security guard yeah long long long time ago and the one thing that i learned from that job is those magnetometers are set to a specific minimum amount of metallic resistance you know i i don't know what the correct measure in terms of force is i don't know if it's a newton or whatever it is but i remember you know their calibrate and they're calibrated in such a way that if you think about when you go through an airport how many people wear like a necklace with a pendant top you know you don't necessarily take those things off they are set and i believe back when i was doing that job and this is more than 25 years ago uh i want to say it was you had to have the total amount of metallic weight that was in like a 22 caliber bullet so if you anything below that you would not energize now if you think about when it comes to commercial grade implants most of the implants are actually made out of silicone you know the amount of actual metal that's contained within them is actually very minute even the titan biomagnet which is an actual magnet it's an iron core wrapped in titanium you know and it's not even as big as ap so the total combined metal that's in all of my implants is still less than what would be on somebody's gold charm now when i get the peg leg put in that's going to be a different story you know but if we move over to the full body x-rays same thing you know the amount of extra the strength of the x-rays that they use in airports is not meant like a medical grade x-ray where you're going to be able to see very fine bone structure and things like that it's just meant to try and see through your clothes are you hiding something and the truth is again they're not set that strong i've actually never triggered anything on a full-body x-ray and i have gone international domestic that it just doesn't even come up yeah and and you know you can see it even if it did let's say with the peg leg you know like i mean the the you no one's an expert uh they're of kind of medical medical components that need to be inserted into the body very a very quick conversation i have an implant here it's medical it's under my skin so that back to one of the points i made earlier pretty much most you know countries have some type of law around personal medical information in the united states we have a law called hipaa so all they can ask me is medical yes medical that's all they're legally allowed to ask if it's inside my body it's basically off limits for them to try and get advanced details and if they do it opens them up to a lawsuit so they won't yeah yeah yeah no i mean and this is this is a way that you can i mean you have multiple layers of defense for you as someone that's conducting an attack you're not using this technology because you have the first thing that they have to make the leap that okay you have implants and secondly they have to deal with the laws that's going to prevent them from even kind of going into detail about it so it's the exact the perfect way to to conceal it now i i i have a question here and i think either answer is going to terrify me because you've said it at the start that there's potentially up to 600 000 people with these with these implants vast majority wouldn't be using them for malicious purposes but still a lot of people but do you know of any real life attacks that have happened um you you know initiated or been bio hacker trans human incorporated actual attacks no but on the opposite side of that coin you know so this is going to be kind of like a two-part answer and i i'm betting that you'll probably be terrified of the answer i'm gonna give you anyway um do i know i here's the thing there has never been anything as far as any type of white paper or remediation dfir that has actually come out and said that you know human augmentation or implants were a root cause of a breach but i do know quite a few people on different red teams within the us that do use them as standard parts of red team engagements so that being said if they're being used by red teams the idea that they actually happened out in the wild to me is probably safe to say the only difference is it either when the breach was discovered the initial entry path via an augmentation was either not discovered again you would have to make that leap or it was looked at for the larger aspect of the breach and this was just overlooked yeah and well i mean you could you could come up with a lot of information about a bridge that's happened without making that jump for instance if it was a wi-fi based attack you could say that the attack happened originated from this place based on that we think it's even this person how they brought the equipment in we don't know you know so there's and and you have to jump yeah exactly i mean to be honest if i had to try and guess yeah i think that it would probably and this is just wild wicked speculation on my part but as being somebody that's in this kind of world and seeing what works and what doesn't my guess that it would probably have been an initial foothold on either a mobile device that was then used for la to lateral into a corporate environment or it was some type of iot just because of the fact that we're dealing with a lot of the nfc communication protocol within those two different areas yeah yeah no i i mean i would i would agree agree with that too and and as i said i think both answers will terrify me because if you could point me to one then okay it's terrifying but if you can't based on what we know that's even more specific yeah i guess yes well crap yeah well i mean look it's it's it's incredibly interesting we're coming towards the end of it i i have some some questions now just kind of about the the general kind of general transhuman movement of these implants sure at the moment on the fringe do you think this is going to become mainstream do you think this is something absolutely absolutely one hundred percent and and i mean girlfriend i was just going i was gonna ask you know what why why is that is it you know what what are the what are some of the cool benefits that everyday people could get from you know having having these implants i think i opened a candle do we need another hour i thought the whole point was not to open pantora's box but you just swung the door wide um let how can the standard everyday person get something out of this i mean for starters uh if you drive a tesla you know you could potentially put an implant in that would give you your tesla key right now yeah you can just get into your car and drive yeah um if you are one of those people that's very forgetful you know you could put your work badge on an implant and you know oh i forgot my keys but i can still get in you know personally i have a uh rfid door door reader on my office so one of my implants is actually the key to get into my office it keeps my wife and my kids out of my office you know um but in terms of do i see this continuing oh my god uh like i said earlier we've got you know spinal stimulation tools now that are returning motility to paralyzed people uh you know the speech i gave here today you know like i said resistance is futile some of the the things that i brought out in the talk today is the fact that we have so many we i i feel we are right on the cusp of some major major breakthroughs around quantum computing around the trans human movement you know there there's i think it was cortical labs back in 2021 actually grew neurons in a bowl that had been incorporated into the one of the first hybrid microprocessors and the speed at which the this thing runs is exponentially faster than traditional cpus and the fact that it works over the same principles as you know the brain's internal technology because neurons as well as so the semiconductors both run off electricity you know we're looking at things like dna being utilized as a storage platform you know one gram of dna fluid can actually hold over seven petabytes of data with a retention life's lifespan of over a hundred years if it's kept in the correct climate you know so i mean if you think about it what i could potentially walk out of your data center with the center with your entire contents of your your data center in the bottom of a fast food cup yeah you know and if by if we look at just the way that we interact with technology now i'm not a big video gamer but you know i have a lot of friends now who are so uh have you looked at the ps5 no i i haven't i haven't but um yeah my girlfriend's at you know very into the game so we're looking at maybe getting one now that looks incredible the graphics on that looks well it's not even about the graphics that's that's not even where i was going um a friend of mine has a ps5 and i don't know if it was call of duty it was one of those you know shooting shoot-em-up games the fact that we have integrated into the haptics of the controllers pressure pulls for triggers you know vibrational stimulation uh we're trying to add you know you can add phillips hue or smart lighting to to enhance you know the effects of your video games we are trying to develop the ability virtual reality um oh god you know the entire vr world and i don't want to use the one word that everybody knows because i'm just not don't want to give them the publicity you know starts with an m and ends with an a but you know we're trying to get that sixth sense you know i mean and to me i wonder if that's kind of what the transhuman movement might start being referred to as you know we have everybody has five senses so if i can intercept that information from a computer if i'm playing a video game and i can somehow through some type of brain implant or you know i can actually feel some simulation hopefully not pain you know if i'm playing a shoot em up game yeah you know if i can you know we're looking at the ability for you know ocular replacements 3d printed organs you know we're not going to stop you know so you know you ask if i see think this is going to get any more integrated as time goes on i don't see how it couldn't yeah you know i mean imagine if you know one day you know and just remember everything is science fiction until it isn't and at one point honestly a lobotomy was considered medical breakthrough science yeah you know so you know if we just look at you know the way that we interact interface to the world we all want to make our our daily lives easier you know so if i can just have some type of an implant that can handle a lot of the the tedious repetitious day-to-day work you know i think the human animal as a whole is going to go for ease of use over complication most times the only problem is i don't think they're going to realize by doing this the amount of complication that they'll be adding yeah no i completely agree with everything you said you know i i i didn't believe that this would probably you know that that would would end up in there at the start of this conversation but you've turned me into a believer uh and i agree i don't see how you know we can't keep progressing forward um in in so many areas so but i look i want to thank you for for sharing your time coming on the podcast it's been interesting it's been also very terrifying um as it is every time i listen to you speak every time you listen to your support but you know really informative um so i just want to to say for the audience if they want to follow you if they want to check out some of the talks what's the best way that they can engage with you and connect with you on social platforms and other areas uh the two that i use honestly the most would be either linkedin or twitter my twitter handle is at hackerunderscore213 and you can find me on linkedin at leno l-e-n last name and oh fantastic well thanks so much lynn uh i've learned a lot and i look forward to chatting you hopefully in person one time uh at a conference hey let's do it man i i really would love to meet up with you in the real world and uh yeah thank you again for for asking me on i really appreciate the opportunity this is the place that uh made nerd cool the most popular password in the united states is password one two three those are some of my previous passwords who on earth would actually fall for that sensitive information has been given to the wrong hands you